Remembrance in a digital age
As digital and virtual initiatives become increasingly part of our daily lives, the way we remember must evolve as well.
Watch as panelists Captain Kirk Sullivan, Carolyn Patton, and Caroline Dromaguet explore the current landscape of digital remembrance - and provide a glimpse of what's to come.
Transcript
Anthony Wilson-Smith
Hi, and welcome everybody. Good morning to everyone, except good afternoon to those in the Atlantic provinces and Maritimes. Remembering those brave Canadians who put their lives on the line defending peace and freedom matters as much today, of course, as at any time in our history. But, how we honour our Veterans service and sacrifice is changing very quickly. Monuments and ceremonies are always going to have their place, but we really have to evolve our commemorative activities to include more digital tools, as we know, and spaces if we really want to engage with Canadians.
Welcome to this virtual panel discussion on remembrance in a digital age. My name is Anthony Wilson-Smith, President and CEO of Historica Canada. It’s my pleasure to be your moderator for today’s discussion. I want to acknowledge before anything that the land I’m on in Toronto, for thousands of years, has been the traditional land of the Huron-Wendat, the Seneca, and more recently, the Mississaugas of the Credit River. Today, this is still home to many Indigenous peoples from across Turtle Island. I'm very grateful to have the opportunity to work here. As we are meeting virtually, I also wish to acknowledge the peoples and the lands on which you are each gathered from coast to coast to coast. Honourable Lawrence MacAulay, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence, welcome and thank you, Minister.
The Honourable Lawrence MacAulay
Thank you very much, Anthony. When I was Secretary of State 25 years ago, commemoration largely meant gathering at monuments and memorials here at home and around the world. It meant wearing poppies on your lapel and having the two minutes of silence every Remembrance Day. The world is different now. We can carry it around in our pocket, and that has changed the way we do things. Even before this past year, we knew we had to find new ways to honour the folks who served our country in uniform. It's been even more important as we head to mark some major anniversaries from home, and we will continue to build on it in the months and years to come, whether it is on social media or otherwise. There is a lot of work to be done to make sure we're able to pass the stories of those who served and given their lives along to our kids and our grandkids. That's what today is all about, and I want to thank all of you for joining us. I look forward to hearing what our panelists have to say, and I thank you very much. Thank you.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
Thank you so much, Minister. Thank you, Minister, for those words of welcome. Now, this is the latest addition in a new series of virtual panels on the future of commemoration. It is about how we engage Canadians in the Act of Remembrance and recognition of Canada’s military. Veterans Affairs Canada and Historica have been seeking ways to reach out digitally to Canadians of all ages and diverse backgrounds. One of the major goals of veterans affairs Canada’s new approach to commemoration is to help Canadians better understand how those who served Canada helped advance peace and security around the world if you want to share your own thoughts on how Canada should commemorate newer generations of service members, we want to know. You can do that by visiting letstalkveterans.ca/commemoration. That’s the key to find it on Google, Let's Talk Veterans, letstalkveterans.ca/commemoration to have your voice heard. Today we will talk with three panelists who are experts in this field. We will discuss the future and we work closely with them and the expertise they bring to the table. We'll talk about the future of commemoration as it relates to digital actuality and initiatives and explore new ways to educate and engage younger audiences in the virtual world. Let's meet our three panelists starting with Captain Kirk Sullivan. Captain Kirk Sullivan is a Public Affairs officer at the Canadian Embassy in Washington. Captain Kirk Sullivan is the individual behind the @cafinus twitter account. The twitter account has more than he is the genius behind the twitter account, one of the best twitter accounts, in my view, for its intelligence, empathy and the quality of its information and reliability. The twitter account has more than 68,000 followers and is known for its unique approach in the ways I just outlined in sharing information with followers. A large portion of the @cafinus content is related in particular to recognition to Canadians who have served, which makes it particularly relevant to today. Carolyn Patton is next joining us from Edmonton. For over 25 years, Carolyn Patton has advanced the creative offerings of multiple corporations and advertising agencies in both Canada and Europe. Today, in addition to be the owner of Patton Communications in Edmonton, she volunteers her creativity to significant initiatives including Canadian Armed Forces, as the granddaughter of a Great War veteran, and the wife of a veteran of more recent conflicts, she is honoured to serve as a board member of the Vimy foundation. And, finally, Caroline Dromaguet. She is the Director General of the Canadian War Museum, a seasoned museum professional, she has over 20 years of experience in numerous aspects of museum work, including museum management, the development and delivery of cultural products, international partnerships and initiatives that strategically position Canada’s rich and fascinating history on the world stage. She is committed to fostering collaboration, innovative thinking and leadership among members of Canada’s museum community.
A brief snapshot of the careers of our people in the digital world. I also want to hear the thoughts of each of you on evolving social media and digital remembrance opportunities and initiatives. We won't go to everybody for each question. We hope to cover a lot of ground. You will need to be shorter than frankly we would like. Carolyn, before the COVID 19 pandemic struck, many of the Canadian War Museum's activities were focussed on the visitor experience within the physical structure of the museum. Now, how is the museum reimagining the learning experience to bring the museum to Canadians through your digital media channels, and what are the opportunities that you see to promote the diversity of Canada’s military history?
Caroline Dromaguet
Thank you, Anthony. That is a very good question. And like many cultural institutions, of course the War Museum is a national museum located in Ottawa, as we all know. And we've always been concerned with our national mandate. We want to reach a vast number of Canadians through our travelling exhibitions and our public instructive sessions and our programming. But of course with the pandemic and all the constraints, obviously the museum was closed for most of last year. And that really was a way for us to see how we could increase our digital presence. So I think the first test for us was commemorating the 60th anniversary of the end of the Second World War. So we developed a whole lot of products and shows. We were able to put a lot of those initiatives online. And this meant for us some great opportunities. We had an exhibition on the Liberation of the Netherlands, which was adapted to a digital format. We also developed all kinds of partnerships with people who are on the call today to talk about what we could do with experts. And we were also able to expand our presence with a lot of diversity, exhibitions on the female artist Molly Lamb Bobak, a very well known artist. We were able to reach the public differently through this. And it was also a way to expand our educational programs. There were a number of schools that used to come and visit us, and of course they couldn't necessarily access those resources from remote. But the pandemic really allowed us to get involved in that. So we developed a pilot project to provide our educational programming in real-time where children in the classroom could speak directly with our experts and benefit from those programs virtually. And of course that is available across Canada, and that is really excellent. We also were able to expand our presence on social media. It was quite a significant increase in our presence there. That gave us an opportunity to engage in greater dialogue at the national level with various groups because we knew that people wanted to share their experiences with us. And that meant more dynamic exchanges. And finally, in terms of diversity, diversity is very much part of our intentions when we're developing products. But at the same time, being able to present those products online means we can do even more. We can reach different segments of the population, and we have an opportunity to show our strength, personal stories, either individual or international personal stories. And it allows us to make a connection with others around the world through our digital platforms and engage in very diversified dialogue. So maybe I’ll just conclude by saying that we want to listen to the public, whether they are teachers, whether they are veterans, whether they are everyday Canadians who are part of our public. We want to be able to present our information to them based on what they're looking for and not necessarily what they think they need.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
Thank you, Caroline. Vimy Foundation creates opportunities for young Canadians to learn about our First World War programs and sending youth on battlefield tours to an extraordinary National Memorial, for any of you have been there, in France which is not possible through this period. It has brought challenges to you as well as other panelists. Can you talk about some of your innovative initiatives, particularly I’m thinking about the First World War in colour, but others as well, where you reengage Canadians to learn about this defining moment in our history more than 100 years ago?
Carolyn Patton
You're very right, we have a world renowned site at Vimy Memorial. No one can go there. Previously, we have sent youth to the memorial and the World War I sites with the Vimy Pilgrimage Award. We're creating new online experiences for youth in particular. We converted the Vimy Pilgrimage Award to an online conference with significant speakers. That was well received. We have also created a new webinar series called "bond the individual" and also podcasts. We are creating content where people can choose how they want to digest that, I suppose you could say. When we engage with young Canadians, especially we try to do the peer to peer engagement. There is no better messenger for youth than other youth themselves. Primarily we're Instagram and Twitter based. But we also had those beautiful World War I colourized images, and that is an incredible asset for our foundation. But we realized that that analog collection and stories had their value in an online capacity. So we identified that as a digital strategy. And the images also create opportunities to align topical issues that are very relevant today, you know, 100 years on, such as the Spanish flu or from the medical corps. That becomes very meaningful storytelling to what is happening and affecting us on a day to day basis right now.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
Thanks, Carolyn. Moving to you, Kirk, the @cafinus Twitter account, of course lets the audience know or reminds people that both Canada and the U.S. are two countries with shared interests, shared histories and values. At the same time, if I may, you have had to do this through a period where for a variety of reasons we've been more reminded of the things that divide us at times than the things that unite us. I think we can agree it has been a challenging time in some ways. You're looking to bridge that. You also said when you send out a tweet, it is like walking into a person's living room in a way. Do you want to talk about that a bit, how you keep your audience engaged and why it is important to tweet or retweet stories of military milestones of those who have served in the time that that need may not be as apparent?
Captain Kirk Sullivan
Yes, if I may. I would like to acknowledge that one year ago today we lost 6 of our fellow members who were serving Canada in the Ionian Sea. We think about them, their friends, and families every day. It is a reminder in the digital age that it is not a long ago thing. It is something that stays with us every day. How do we keep our audience engaged? Well, I think you have to ask a number of questions. Who is the audience? Who are we? Who do we represent? What do we represent? The answers might seem obvious to you when you see me and understand I’m here in the U.S. as a military diplomat. We represent Canada and represent ourselves to Americans. What does our military represent? Who do we want to be? Who are Canadians? Who are Americans? I ask myself these questions every day. It might be nuanced to the question. I think it is about how to engage with people who are already engaging with each other as you acknowledge all the various conversations that have happened of late that can have the impact of dividing us. So we acknowledge these conversations are ongoing on social media. It is like walking into a crowded living room. And at least where I’m from and I think most places, you shouldn't stroll in, make an announcement in the crowded living room and leave. You would listen to the conversations first. You would try to understand the individuals, their concerns, their fears, their joys, what makes them laugh, what makes them cry. So in understanding that, engaging necessarily consists of a lot of listening, weighing, considering, and then after all that thinking, which admittedly takes much longer for me than it does for most folks, you try to add something to the conversation. So instead of planning something, you bring in something that relates to the daily conversations that happen on social media. So often that is something from our past, obviously, as people who follow the account know. And whether that is a military mission or a personal story about those who served, I think these stories like I represent the people who lived those lives, lived through those stories. That doesn't merely include the triumphs, it includes the less shiny parts we don't talk about enough. I think they help define who we are as a country and as a military.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
Thanks, Kirk. The next question, I will be selfish regarding our own efforts at Historica, this is about the various tools. What makes sense to what audience, and how we use them? In our place where we make, for example, the heritage minutes and the memory project bringing voices of veterans to schools and other public places and also with the Canadian encyclopedia, we're also looking at evolving digital media trends. One of the issues we'll talk about after is how to appeal to in particular young people. I'm aware where I’m coming on this. I know about 6 or 8 months ago a number of our people started talking about the idea of going to TikTok with its short format and much more youthful audience. I have to say at that point I said, I don't know, I don't know if that is going to work. It has worked enormously well. It seemed counterintuitive, but it has broadened our audience in the millions by more than a third and brought us a new audience. That's been our experience, and then we target other places. I'm curious, Carolyn Patton, Vimy Foundation is creating a virtual experience so you can experience the Vimy Memorial or surrounding park from your home or classroom or whenever you're able to do that. Just talk about that and describe it a bit.
Carolyn Patton
For many of us right now, we're in a state of stationary learning without the benefit of travelling. So the idea is instead of going to Vimy, we're really going to take Vimy to the world through this new digital experience. And it is called Vimy, a living memorial. It will coincide with the 105th anniversary of Vimy next year in 2022. It will draw upon a set of stories and events and create a new narrative for the legacy of the First World War that really resonates to our realities. But in developing it with our many partners, which is Veterans Affairs and NFB, the stories are geolocated to the memorial and the surrounding area. It will be quite a robust experience. So you can really go for a walk anywhere in the world. It doesn't matter if you're in Whitehorse or doesn't matter if you're in Washington. Dare I say that it is the gamification style of digitizing historical content? It creates this new unique learning asset that will augment our educational programs. But really it can augment anyone's learning and research into the battle of Vimy Ridge and the First World War. And we would be able to offer personalized stories and creating this really unique experience that will be accessible for free for anyone. It is really digitizing that Vimy experience.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
So related to that, I’m going to go to each of you. Learning about remembrance, teaching about military history has changed over time. The events have only happened once but we look at them sometimes and they look so much different. Many Canadians no longer have the direct links of relatives that was the case maybe 20 years ago and longer, and of course newer Canadians often have no direct link to Canada’s past. So the overriding question is how you reach those individuals to help them connect. Kirk, that will be different when you talk about primarily an American audience. It is a little different question. Canada as a nation is evolving. There are a lot of new Canadians who have come from areas where the army has been deployed. How is the War Museum introducing digital content to remain relevant for all Canadians by encouraging people to learn about Canada’s military history and recognizing the service and sacrifices of those who have served?
Caroline Dromaguet
Yes, thank you, Anthony, well, certainly. Before we came to the digital platforms in the museum itself and in our permanent galleries, we think it is very important to present those personal stories. And often we draw a linkage to Canadian military men and women. And that is a way of encouraging that kind of dialogue. Obviously we have had to adjust in order to maintain that kind of dialogue with Canadians. But I think we are succeeding pretty well. And I could give you an example of some of our educational resources. We do receive feedback from teachers, as I said. We have seen that very often it is a point of entry. These personal stories of Canadian military personnel is a point of entry. It leads to a conversation with young people who may have had experiences in their countries of origin where there was a conflict and now they're in Canada that engages the conversation, and they can make linkages to experiences they have learned about in the Canadian context. And I think that is great because at that point they want to share their own personal experience with conflict. This has really borne fruit for us. In terms of commemoration, the last year was a great opportunity for us to adjust the way we celebrate Remembrance Day. We developed some new virtual resources that offer the schools and the community and other groups that want to organize their own commemoration some tools. It is a great resource. They have access to materials. They have access to our digital information and educational resources so they, themselves, can be directly involved in those remembrance ceremonies. I think that more than ever we need these opportunities, these ways for people to present their views, a diversity of views. We want to present Canada’s history in a way that resonates with people. An event that occurred 100 years ago, for example, how can that event feel real for people now? How can it register with them? I think that is something necessary for all Canadians today.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
Thank you, Caroline. Kirk, as I said, your base is a bit different when you talk about looking to reach Americans and teach more about Canadian history. If I may on this first part, it will not imply that you agree with me, but I think as Canadians we say Americans, when we watch Hollywood movies, often the Americans figure they went to war by themselves and did a lot by themselves. Of course we do want to remind them that has not been the case, we have not only been there, we have played a pretty key role. How do you engage persons in saying, you know, here is us and here is what we did alongside you as your allies, as your friends?
Captain Kirk Sullivan
I think a big part of it is understanding what they think about, what they worry about, what they talk about every day. Like I said before, it is important to understand what matters to them. And we know that military service matters a great deal to Americans. And we know that they talk about it routinely. So if I’m to inject our stories of Canada, and I think that that is the means by which we do it, we understand our stories. We understand their stories. We say, hey, there is overlap here. Here is what we did. Here is what these people experienced. And for me personally, I’m not a historian. I didn't know enough about these experiences until coming to this position, the experience of Canadian veterans, that is. So diving into those individual personal stories, whether it is about military milestones from our past, big historical moments, I think telling stories, people will always be interested in a good story. They will always be interested to learn how people overcame significant challenges, both at home and abroad. So I know that Americans want those stories, that they, themselves, are interested in their own stories of that nature. We have seen they are also interested in similar Canadian stories. You're right, most of the time when we dive in and tell those really powerful moments, usually it is when I get out of the way and let the moments shine for themselves that it resonates with Americans. And for the most part, they didn't know those stories from Canada’s past. So I think that speaks to a couple of things. Part of what we're doing is working, which is usually getting out of the way and showing Americans Canadian veterans and their experiences. But also that I have work to do because we are still on a daily, weekly basis discovering that there are people who didn't know some of the more significant parts of our history.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
Including, I would say, Canadians as well who continue to learn about the Canadian role in the past. You have been involved, as I know, in other initiatives in addition to Vimy where Canadians can reflect on service and sacrifice for those who served, our theme today, and how to honour that. What are some of the ways to really make a meaningful personal connection when you look back at things you have done? You have talked about some of them with Vimy, but in general?
Carolyn Patton
Yeah, it is that balance between creating a really meaningful connection both in the digital and online world but also we can't forget about the in person event too because that is what affects our heart and expression of commemoration. For the Vimy centenary in Edmonton we did something really different. We had a 12 hour vigil from sunrise to sunset to mark April 9th, The Battle of Vimy Ridge day. There's traditionally four soldiers that stand watch. We created four new spots for citizens to stand watch at exactly the same time as those four soldiers. So we created an online website where people can register and tell their stories. We had over 200 people stand watch for 15 minutes. They could sign up for 15 minutes, and it was gone within two hours. They stood from morning to night. What we didn't expect at all was the emotion. People brought photos. They brought momentos. They told stories, asked questions. Many of them cried, and they shared online and the engagement was huge. I have to say it was probably one of the most moving experiences that I’ve ever seen where we created these 8 people that were standing watch together. And the people that stood watch got a certificate that said I stood watch. So we know that some of the people didn't have a relative that was in any kind of conflict or war or maybe even knew a person that served. We had one boy who was young. His grandparents flew from England to see him stand watch on Vimy day. I believe this was the first time this was done in Canada. And I hope that it is not the last. But the comment is that connecting that meaningful in person experience with the opportunity to express online and it provokes this wonderful conversation. And people were talking to each other who didn't know each other. But the emotion caught us off guard. We were busy managing this unique experience, and we weren't prepared for the emotion. I think that is where you create this beautiful, meaningful experience that people can tell their own stories. Through that process, they're now creating their own story to tell their grandchildren.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
It is a lovely story and experience. It knits together something each of you have talked about which is that when you can reach people on a personal level, separate from the discussion of dates and places and overall numbers and things, but rather how people felt, there is such great effect. And you do it all so well. I want to move to a kind of a thorny issue which is one, frankly, that we wrestle with at Historica Canada, very important for each of you. I want to ask each of you how you cope. Canadian history, like any other country, is filled with moments of great achievement in the case of military service, great heroism and sacrifice. Also there are failures, sometimes injustices, of things we would love to do much differently. Undoubtedly we'll look back from the future and think the same. I'm thinking of the treatment of indigenous communities and biopic communities and issues that have arisen, gender bias, and a whole list of things again of which I think everybody is aware. Discussing these things or bringing these things to light, looking for lessons or looking for acknowledgment, our own view at Historica is you make a very good country or make a country better by making people proud of those achievements. But also by making people look and say here is how we could do better, should do better and will do better. Kirk, you have talked about yourself about the need to be honest in speaking about our past. You deal in a very empathetic way on the Twitter account with difficult issues. If you want to give your thoughts on how social media can be a medium to having conversations about difficult topics in a way that allows for new perspectives and understandings. Maybe when you have looked in modelling this account, as you said you have, who inspired you when you were thinking about how to take this approach? It is tough in your position, it is.
Captain Kirk Sullivan
Yeah, again, acknowledging that social media is a discussion amongst a wide variety of people I think is important in any discussion certainly when you're representing the military, representing our country. We need to be honest about who it is that we are. And so if we're going to be honest, I think we have to acknowledge who we're talking about when we say "our." We have to acknowledge that it is most certainly not merely those who look like me who had the privilege and sheltered upbringing that I had in Newfoundland. So if I’m to do justice, if we're to do justice by those I’m attempting to represent, I have to understand their stories, their experiences of Canada. I already said that I didn't know enough about them before coming here. So how do we do this? How do I do this? I seek out people from those communities, understand their stories and obviously experts, actual historians, I’m not one, to learn more about the big "us." I learn about the experience of black veterans, for example, from the work of former people who wrote about number 2 construction battalion in the First World War. It is in the news of late. I learn about the tragic and terrible experiences of women as they served their country through the words of people like Kelly Thompson, Sandra Perron and those who continue to speak bravely on a daily basis about what happened to them about sexual misconduct in our military. Obviously, you allude to the fact and you mentioned the experiences of Métis, First Nations and Inuit in Canada. Unfortunately, again I didn't know enough about that before diving into it to study about how to represent our country here in the universe. The horror of residential schools and the stories of those who survived the schools and still chose to serve Canada in uniform and return to face extreme discrimination again. Tanya, Richard Wagamees, Louis Riel, Tommy Prince, Edith Anderson, I don't know enough about them, I still don't. Obviously, the resources provided by Historica Canada at the War Museum and Vimy Foundation helped me understand and grow as a Canadian. I see it really not only as an obligation in my professional role but an obligation as a citizen of our country. Why does it matter? Why does it matter to the military all of those issues? I really think it is quite basic. We come from those communities, military members do. Also on a broader level, the military would be concerned about the very people we exist to defend. So when one of them hurts, we should hurt, and we should show people that we hurt as well. So we laugh with them, we cry with them, and we represent all of them. And I think the stories from our past are critical to understanding who we are today, obviously including those stories we haven't heard enough about, the moments we maybe didn't live up to the notion that we all have of Canada. Who were we? Who are we? Who do we want to be? I don't think we can move forward as a country that we can aspire for better until we're honest about our past, and I think that has to be an ongoing thing. So I mentioned some of the folks, some of those particularly indigenous folks in Canada are online, and I learn from them on a daily basis. But I think learning from people who are honest, who provide an honest approach to not communications but engagement are those who I learn from most.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
Thank you very much for that, Kirk. I do want to say a number of the names you cite are really worth writing down and taking note of as important contributors in this regard. Caroline, the same challenges presented by Captain Sullivan, what do you do as Director of the museum?
Caroline Dromaguet
Well, I agree entirely with what Captain Sullivan has just said. It is extremely important for us as a public institution of military history to present the history in all its facets, the good and the bad. We need to tell the story as it happened. And that point of view is extremely important. It is one thing to present the facts in history, but it is also extremely important to see to it that these points of view come from lived experience. I believe we do it rather well at the war museum. It is something that we must do constantly. It is also an opportunity to have this exchange, this dialogue, this debate. Now, we have exhibitions, but we also offer the possibility of having a dialogue, either conferences or presentations of panelists. And with the pandemic, this becomes easier because we don't have the geographical problems or the financial problems. It is easier to have these exchanges, these debates, to have honest conversations. I believe we'll have to continue doing so and not to have any fear to do so.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
Thank you, Caroline. Your grandfather fought in the Great War. I believe that your husband served in the military and there are some other links and of course there is your own volunteer interest which is considerable in the military. You are targeting a lot of what you do at Vimy Foundation otherwise crucially as you should at young people. Among young people, we know they see movies, see things that can often make war look like a grand adventure as it was sold to young people at many times in the past. We understand at this level there is a lot more than that, there is horror, fear, loss at an enormous level. People are never the same, communities are never the same. How do you address communicating with that? We know, for example, of course the loss of Vimy helped shape the nation. The losses were horrific too. How do we deal with the flip side of that?
Carolyn Patton
Well, truth and transparency is key to understanding who we are and where we're going. We serve no one when we romanticize war. We have to be able to dig deeper and understand not the stories only from 100 years ago but what is relevant to veterans of today and also Canadians who have come from countries who have a different experience with conflict and war. It is very real for them because they have escaped for a better life. And when we look at those lessons learned from 100 years ago, we can connect that to today. I think that is really important. That can help inform and expand our perspective on how events and conflicts of the past and present shape us as individuals today. In my home, it is very real. From my grandfather or my great uncle who fought, to my husband, he was the oc of the NATO hospital in Kandahar in '06, there's lessons learned from all over. To really connect that and to make it real has to be done through truth and transparency. We can't hide it, especially with our indigenous population and the stories about when they came home. They were completely unfair. We can't hide that. We only get better when we learn from that. We also have an opportunity for everyone to be able to engage and tell their story and what is real for them. Movies sometimes don't do us a benefit, do they?
Anthony Wilson-Smith
No. No, after all, it is a script with a beginning, middle and developed end before it even gets going. Here is a two pronged question for each of you to handle. As a guy with grey hair, let me say when I was growing up and I’m thinking way back to about the '70s or so here, World War II veterans were everywhere, your hockey coach, neighbour, banker, the experience was a living thing. It was very much a part of the community, and that was true given the scale of the participation of Canada. That is not true today. The remaining veterans we have left are diminishing in number and well into their 90s. The communication is not as clear and the conflicts which, such as your husband, that our younger veterans have been engaged in are far away, and the impact is more difficult to describe. How in each of your terms, we'll start with you, Kirk, I know you have a split audience, but how do you convince young people in particular of the importance of these conflicts. And how do you get them to pay attention in the first place?
Captain Kirk Sullivan
So I guess it is more about understanding what they are paying attention to already that determines what I want them to pay attention to. We insert the thing that we're talking about that pertains to their conversation. And I mean certainly we have heard the news of the U.S. drawdown in Afghanistan which happened for us many years ago. It is a more near thing seemingly, at least, to our American audience with regard to being involved in a conflict, combat conflict overseas. So I think, yeah, inserting it into the conversations. I come from, as I said, a very small town in Newfoundland. I remember going to the war memorials back home and it being an incredibly somber moment because the men and women of my grandmother's generation, they remember losing their family members to these wars. So how do I convey that to a younger audience? Again, I lean on those stories. People are drawn in when they understand the difficulties faced by other people. And I think most people don't realize when they think about the long ago war, they don't think about the age of the people when they went. They don't think about people in their late teens and early 20s who basically suffered the greatest rate of casualty. So there is that aspect, and then why is it important? Well, I think being honest about war and what war looks like, as Carolyn mentioned, I think it is critical. It is important that citizens in a democracy understand not only what it is that their military is doing on their behalf. But when we decide as a country to get involved in combat operations, I think it is important that people know it is not a big adventure, which in our past we know that that's what people thought they were getting into. I know that people who joined the Royal Newfoundland Regiment, some of them at least thought they were going off on a grand adventure in Europe. It most certainly wasn't the case in some places. I think all of these daily directions contribute to building awareness about experiences of our past. I think if we do it right, we can reach them. It is possible. People are always interested in those stories.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
You draw it back, Kirk, to that personal element you have all talked about. I was mentioning earlier, if I may with Historica, I’m recalling that in the anniversary of D-Day, we had a person 47 involved in D-Day, he stayed in the military because he wanted to oversee all these 19 and 20 year olds who went off to war. We launched from the place he was from near small towns in Fredericton. And high school students at 16 and 17 looked and really saw it personally. They thought, well, what would I have done if I was a year older? Would I have gone there and engaged personally? We still see the effect today that history lives with us still, that there were communities that have never been the same because the losses suffered, the widow, the daughter of the soldier Archie McNaughton who grew up without a father. You are dealing when we talk about the Vimy context, of course, for the conflict in which no one is alive any longer. How do you transmit that in terms of that relevance? I would also ask the same question to Caroline after this.
Carolyn Patton
Sometimes we look to the veteran experience. The veteran experience is universal. From coming together and what they did 100 years ago, we put soldiers in that same scenario today. That experience is still very real and very connected. And I think in order to reach out to an audience and a young audience that may not know even what the Battle of Vimy Ridge is or any of the First World War sites, we need to do better which is connect with very unexpected partnerships, perhaps, at the Vimy Foundation. Then you can almost have this mashup of creating ways to engage youth and not the expected partnerships. Whether it is through how youth express themselves now which is art and music and other ways that are important to them, and I liked what Kirk said, you have to go to where they are because in many ways they're not going to come to you. Just because you have something online doesn't mean they're going to show up. So you have to go to them, understand what is important to them, what is in their world, what motivates them. And then being able to offer and augment something that is meaningful for them is important. It is hard. There is no doubt about it. We are looking for those ways for us to grow at the Vimy Foundation but also to be able to offer something that is unique and different and modern to that new generation.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
Caroline, a few words from you on that.
Caroline Dromaguet
Yes, thank you. I fully agree, of course, with what my colleagues have just said. Of course it is not easy. But in conclusion, I could give you a few more concrete examples. I think what is important is to make the story concrete for the young generation, create some links that make it real. For example, we have the supply line school program. These are boxes of information that go to the schools. In them we have a tunic from the First World War. It is scratchy and heavy. When the young understand that 100 years ago a soldier of their age had to wear this tunic that was filled with lice, it makes them understand. In the digital field, we have oral stories that we have taped with our veterans. So you can listen to their voices and listen to their emotions, listen to their history right from their voice. In the museum, we have a collection of more than 500 oral testimonies of veterans from the Second World War to the afghan conflict. We hope to increase this collection. That is a way of establishing contact because you have the human voice and emotions.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
Time for one, possibly two questions. Here is an important one. Newer Canadians, not even new Canadians as such, but those who have arrived really any time during the last 25 to 40 years, what do you say or what do you show this is for each of you to interest them especially if they're young. They say I wasn't here. This wasn't my war. My family was in a different part of the world. I wasn't born. Why do I care? What is the point of interest for me? This relates to the challenges of Vimy which is a long past thing. How do you answer that? What do you do for that?
Carolyn Patton
Yeah, why should they care, that is the overriding principle I have with any kind of outreach or communications we do. Why should people care about this history and what the experience has been for veterans and soldiers throughout the years? Sometimes through stories we learn about ourselves. We learn about who we are and how we react. And it helps inform our view on the world. If we can offer those ways to engage with narrative and storytelling, perhaps in a very simple way we can just learn more about what we do, how we act and what we can offer. And veterans have committed to our communities and our country through service. It is the same for citizens. I think there is an example there where we offer opportunities for youth to contribute to their community through lessons learned and to be better than some of the things that we have done. I think that might be a way to offer a way to commemorate and remember through making it real for them and that storytelling and to help us just understand their world personally and the larger world around us.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
Same question for you, Caroline.
Caroline Dromaguet
Well, yes, thank you. I can give a personal answer because I’m in the category that Anthony mentioned. I arrived from another country at a young age. I immigrated from another country. And for me the military history was detached. It wasn't what I had learned. And what resonated within me, and it is something we do more and more and something we want to do at the War Museum is to establish a link with Canada of today. What are the events that marked us? What is the military history that has had an impact on the Canada of today? This will allow us to better understand the Canada we live in. I would like to add that we realized more and more that new arrivals in Canada are really interested in hearing the history of Canada through Canadian military history. They do have that interest. I don't have an answer as to why we see that phenomenon. But war and conflict is a universal theme, and it is a way of contacting people.
Captain Kirk Sullivan
Yes, so why should people care? I guess it defines us or is part of what defines us. By "us", I mean our country because what is Canada if not the people? I grew up with a map of Canada on my wall. And you tend to think about that or we tend to think about the maple leaf and say, okay, this is Canada. But really, we're all of those experiences from our past, including our military past, that create this country. So I would hope that people new to our country, new Canadians would be interested in what made up us as we exist now. But saying that, I also hope that people don't feel obliged to do that because I think a big part of or I consider a big part of what a military exists to provide is a society where people don't always have to talk about or worry about the military. So I hope we get to a point where it is not as important. I certainly don't think that new Canadians should feel obliged to learn these things, though I hope that they do. Yeah, I really think that military exists to provide that peace where people have the comfort to choose what they learn about their past. Obviously they do, but I’m fine if the social discourse gradually includes less about conflict.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
So we have a little under three minutes left. I'm going to ask each of you a personal question and ask you to be brief, as well, running against the clock. Each of you have chosen to engage in this field in one way or another, Carolyn, many, many years volunteering, kirk, leaving your small town in newfoundland, sign a piece of paper and go anywhere they told you. And Caroline, for you it is not just an ordinary job it is obvious. What drives you to it or what is the big emotional driver?
Caroline Dromaguet
For me it is personal experience. It is to listen to all these stories, all the emotion, and I’ve learned a lot about our country through these contacts. It is the personal contact that is important.
Carolyn Patton
It gives me a better understanding of what it is to be Canadian, my world around me. It helps me understand my family better on a very personal level. It helps me share with my children and my immediate community around me. It is quite a personal thing actually, yeah.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
Kirk? Sitting in Washington, a long way from Newfoundland, how about you?
Captain Kirk Sullivan
A long way from Newfoundland. I certainly didn't think I would end up here. When I was a kid, Montreal was like the moon to me, so Washington, D.C. is the deep reaches of outer space to that little kid. I've been in the military for years now. Thankfully, my motivations have changed since I was in my very early 20s to now. And now I think they're about that idea of Canada, my idea of Canada. I think we all have our own ideas about who we are as a country. I like the aspirational notion of our country, and I like the idea of working towards that. If in some small way I can contribute to that, I don't know if that happens online or that happens wherever I end up after this. That is the notion, as idealistic as it might seem, that keeps me doing what I do. Yeah, I hope that we can continue to strive towards that notion of our country.
Anthony Wilson-Smith
I think that personal note is very nice, an appropriate way for us to wind up our time today as the clock winds down. I want to thank each of you of course, Captain Kirk Sullivan, Carolyn Patton, and Caroline Dromaguet for sharing your time and reflections and thoughts. I have been taking some notes of my own throughout. You have given us lots to think about remembrance in a digital age. I want to thank all you for joining us, there are hundreds of you, and for your thoughts. Also to Veterans Affairs Canada for putting this together and the continual effort and the delight that all of us work and find the people there to be. I would also encourage viewers to be present at our next meeting to continue to explore important aspects of commemoration in Canada. Thank you very much for your presence and participation. We will be over and out from here. Goodbye.
- Date modified: